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	<title>Comments on: The new NIH grant format</title>
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	<link>http://morganonscience.com/writing/the-new-nih-grant-format/</link>
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		<title>By: Spindoc73</title>
		<link>http://morganonscience.com/writing/the-new-nih-grant-format/comment-page-1/#comment-2825</link>
		<dc:creator>Spindoc73</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morganonscience.com/?p=204#comment-2825</guid>
		<description>so if a genius with a world-changing idea was credentialed from a school that you felt was inferior, and had only published 5 papers, the fact is that you would fail i suppose. and by inference, the fellow from yale with 15 second author papers but not a fresh idea in sight, would succeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so if a genius with a world-changing idea was credentialed from a school that you felt was inferior, and had only published 5 papers, the fact is that you would fail i suppose. and by inference, the fellow from yale with 15 second author papers but not a fresh idea in sight, would succeed.</p>
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		<title>By: reply to datodato</title>
		<link>http://morganonscience.com/writing/the-new-nih-grant-format/comment-page-1/#comment-2145</link>
		<dc:creator>reply to datodato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 21:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morganonscience.com/?p=204#comment-2145</guid>
		<description>There are two fundamentally different types of study sections.  

The first is composed of everyone in the &quot;field&quot;.  In this case, the study section members all go to the same conferences and publish in the same journals.  In this case, the experiments are obvious.  The questions are who is the appropriate person to conduct the experiments.  There is little disagreement over the significance over proposals.  Most of the scoring comes down to the approach and whether the investigator can execute the approach.  If the applicant is not part of that clique, or was not educated in that clique, there is no hope and datodato is correct.

The second  type of study section is one composed of all types of people.  These are a mixture of chemists, engineers, computer science, physics, with a few weirdo basic biomedical scientists thrown in.  In this case, the reviewers don&#039;t know the applicants and their credentials.  Here, communication is absolutely key and the Significance of the work is important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are two fundamentally different types of study sections.  </p>
<p>The first is composed of everyone in the &#8220;field&#8221;.  In this case, the study section members all go to the same conferences and publish in the same journals.  In this case, the experiments are obvious.  The questions are who is the appropriate person to conduct the experiments.  There is little disagreement over the significance over proposals.  Most of the scoring comes down to the approach and whether the investigator can execute the approach.  If the applicant is not part of that clique, or was not educated in that clique, there is no hope and datodato is correct.</p>
<p>The second  type of study section is one composed of all types of people.  These are a mixture of chemists, engineers, computer science, physics, with a few weirdo basic biomedical scientists thrown in.  In this case, the reviewers don&#8217;t know the applicants and their credentials.  Here, communication is absolutely key and the Significance of the work is important.</p>
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		<title>By: Antje Daub</title>
		<link>http://morganonscience.com/writing/the-new-nih-grant-format/comment-page-1/#comment-1865</link>
		<dc:creator>Antje Daub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Dec 2010 16:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morganonscience.com/?p=204#comment-1865</guid>
		<description>The new version seems more efficient.  The focus needs to be on the innovation anyhow which is often cluttered and lost in the background (if the literature review was thorough and precise enough..)The old version invited confusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The new version seems more efficient.  The focus needs to be on the innovation anyhow which is often cluttered and lost in the background (if the literature review was thorough and precise enough..)The old version invited confusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Antje Daub</title>
		<link>http://morganonscience.com/writing/the-new-nih-grant-format/comment-page-1/#comment-1864</link>
		<dc:creator>Antje Daub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Dec 2010 16:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morganonscience.com/?p=204#comment-1864</guid>
		<description>This webpage was exactly what I was looking for. I needed a brief summary of the new grant version on what has exactly changed compared to the old version! Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This webpage was exactly what I was looking for. I needed a brief summary of the new grant version on what has exactly changed compared to the old version! Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: morgan</title>
		<link>http://morganonscience.com/writing/the-new-nih-grant-format/comment-page-1/#comment-1666</link>
		<dc:creator>morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2010 17:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morganonscience.com/?p=204#comment-1666</guid>
		<description>Nice rhetorical trick of saying &quot;we study section members&quot; - yes, I&#039;ve been on study section before too.

You are missing the point on so many levels, it is hard to know where to begin.

You obviously think you&#039;re smart, and can &quot;see through&quot; good or bad writing to the &quot;truth.&quot;

Good for you, but it is not true.

For example, interpret the science in the following poorly written sentence:

&quot;ENasdh eqydsal amass ditiem cped f klight skared&quot;

There is a famous scientific axiom embedded in that sentence, but it is so obfuscated by poor typing that it will take you a lot of work to figure it out.

Maybe you have infinite patience and don&#039;t mind trying to understand what &quot;someone really meant&quot; even when they don&#039;t know what they meant. 

Writing is a tool that helps clarify thinking, as a symbolic system.  If the writing is unclear, often the thinking is unclear.

I know many senior scientists doing very great, ground breaking science (including a Nobel prize winner in Medicine) who often can&#039;t get funding from study sections with people like you.

One last point: if presentation &quot;is the trivial part&quot; then why did you bother to write ~10 complete, mostly correct sentences?  Why didn&#039;t you just write &quot;you suck and you&#039;re wrong?&quot;  Why bother with all the fluff of making &quot;logical&quot; arguments, if you could just call me names and make pretty much the same point?

Oh, yeah, it&#039;s because &quot;presentation matters.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice rhetorical trick of saying &#8220;we study section members&#8221; &#8211; yes, I&#8217;ve been on study section before too.</p>
<p>You are missing the point on so many levels, it is hard to know where to begin.</p>
<p>You obviously think you&#8217;re smart, and can &#8220;see through&#8221; good or bad writing to the &#8220;truth.&#8221;</p>
<p>Good for you, but it is not true.</p>
<p>For example, interpret the science in the following poorly written sentence:</p>
<p>&#8220;ENasdh eqydsal amass ditiem cped f klight skared&#8221;</p>
<p>There is a famous scientific axiom embedded in that sentence, but it is so obfuscated by poor typing that it will take you a lot of work to figure it out.</p>
<p>Maybe you have infinite patience and don&#8217;t mind trying to understand what &#8220;someone really meant&#8221; even when they don&#8217;t know what they meant. </p>
<p>Writing is a tool that helps clarify thinking, as a symbolic system.  If the writing is unclear, often the thinking is unclear.</p>
<p>I know many senior scientists doing very great, ground breaking science (including a Nobel prize winner in Medicine) who often can&#8217;t get funding from study sections with people like you.</p>
<p>One last point: if presentation &#8220;is the trivial part&#8221; then why did you bother to write ~10 complete, mostly correct sentences?  Why didn&#8217;t you just write &#8220;you suck and you&#8217;re wrong?&#8221;  Why bother with all the fluff of making &#8220;logical&#8221; arguments, if you could just call me names and make pretty much the same point?</p>
<p>Oh, yeah, it&#8217;s because &#8220;presentation matters.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: datodato</title>
		<link>http://morganonscience.com/writing/the-new-nih-grant-format/comment-page-1/#comment-1665</link>
		<dc:creator>datodato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morganonscience.com/?p=204#comment-1665</guid>
		<description>Writing in science is important. But the emphasis on how to communicate and how to present has been exaggerated. You could be a very good scientist no matter how lousy your communicative skills are. As a matter of the fact, study section member is no fool. We look at two facts: your credential and your work, which counts for 90% of the score you would get. Presentation is a trivial part. There are lots of foreign scientists writing a very bad English, but still got funded. Keep in mind, NIH funds the best science performed by one of the best scientist, no a best salesman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Writing in science is important. But the emphasis on how to communicate and how to present has been exaggerated. You could be a very good scientist no matter how lousy your communicative skills are. As a matter of the fact, study section member is no fool. We look at two facts: your credential and your work, which counts for 90% of the score you would get. Presentation is a trivial part. There are lots of foreign scientists writing a very bad English, but still got funded. Keep in mind, NIH funds the best science performed by one of the best scientist, no a best salesman.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://morganonscience.com/writing/the-new-nih-grant-format/comment-page-1/#comment-322</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morganonscience.com/?p=204#comment-322</guid>
		<description>All the talk about the advantage to senior investigators seems to overlook that there should be some advantage to being a senior investigator. Experience should count for something. On the other hand, the junior investigator has some advantages, too in not being so wedded to the current groupthink. I will also say that if one cannot write well, one should find a career other than science. Being a scientist is far more than being someone who works in the lab. Communicating those findings is an essential skill because until that is achieved successfully, one might as well have not done the lab work.

The new format certainly is a new experience for me, a senior investigator. I am finding that while I can think outside the box, writing outside it is another matter entirely. My first one of these new grants was the most difficult one I have ever written.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the talk about the advantage to senior investigators seems to overlook that there should be some advantage to being a senior investigator. Experience should count for something. On the other hand, the junior investigator has some advantages, too in not being so wedded to the current groupthink. I will also say that if one cannot write well, one should find a career other than science. Being a scientist is far more than being someone who works in the lab. Communicating those findings is an essential skill because until that is achieved successfully, one might as well have not done the lab work.</p>
<p>The new format certainly is a new experience for me, a senior investigator. I am finding that while I can think outside the box, writing outside it is another matter entirely. My first one of these new grants was the most difficult one I have ever written.</p>
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		<title>By: Irina</title>
		<link>http://morganonscience.com/writing/the-new-nih-grant-format/comment-page-1/#comment-173</link>
		<dc:creator>Irina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morganonscience.com/?p=204#comment-173</guid>
		<description>It will be more difficult for new investigators to show feasibility. However, it helps to stay more focused and clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It will be more difficult for new investigators to show feasibility. However, it helps to stay more focused and clear.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://morganonscience.com/writing/the-new-nih-grant-format/comment-page-1/#comment-172</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morganonscience.com/?p=204#comment-172</guid>
		<description>Well, the advantage of a seasoned investigator is always there. They are more experienced in the field, has a more credible track record, and, most of all, they have a much better grasp of the science and how to communicate it. As a new investigator, I felt that the short version created new challenges in terms of how to be selective in presenting preliminary data and how to focus. Regardless of the length requirement, the significance and quality of preliminary data will still be judged carefully by the reviewers. That said, I agree with Morgan that being new investigators obviates the need for adjustment from the &quot;old-fashed&quot; NIH grant format.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the advantage of a seasoned investigator is always there. They are more experienced in the field, has a more credible track record, and, most of all, they have a much better grasp of the science and how to communicate it. As a new investigator, I felt that the short version created new challenges in terms of how to be selective in presenting preliminary data and how to focus. Regardless of the length requirement, the significance and quality of preliminary data will still be judged carefully by the reviewers. That said, I agree with Morgan that being new investigators obviates the need for adjustment from the &#8220;old-fashed&#8221; NIH grant format.</p>
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